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The War Profiteers - War Crimes,
Kidnappings, Torture and Big Money |
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December 4th,
2006 - Kofi Annan Interview: Text |
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BBC News December 4, 2006 The outgoing UN secretary general
Kofi Annan gave his last BBC interview to Lyse Doucet. He is due to step down
on 31 December when he will be succeeded by South Korea's foreign minister
Ban Ki-moon. Below is an excerpt from the interview: BBC: Was the invasion of
Iraq in 2003, without a Security Council resolution, the most difficult point
for you in your term? Kofi Annan: It was extremely
difficult, because I really believed that we could have stopped the war and
that if we had worked a bit harder - given the inspectors a bit more time -
we could have. I was also concerned that
for the US and its coalition to go to war without the consent of the Council
in that particular region, which has always been extremely controversial,
would be extremely difficult and very divisive and that it would take quite a
long time to put the organisation back together, and of course it divided the
world too. It is healing but we are not
there yet. It hasn't healed yet and we feel the tension still in this
organisation as a result of that. BBC: And you watch with
mounting alarm, like many people, what's happening. In September, you said
Iraq was in danger of sliding towards civil war. Kofi Annan: Civil war, yeah. BBC: A few days ago, you
said it was almost civil war. Kofi Annan: Yeah. BBC: Is it civil war? Kofi Annan: It is an
extremely dangerous situation and I think we all are interested in getting
Iraq right and we would want to get it right, but the Iraqis will have to
come together and make it happen. Obviously, they are going to need help,
given the killings and the bitterness I'm not sure they can do it alone. They would need help from
the international community and their neighbours, but some of the key things
they have to do is the constitutional review, really, looking at issues of
revenue sharing, oil and taxation revenues, how do you share it fairly
amongst the three groups, or four groups? How do you share power? I mean, all the struggle is
about each group's position in future Iraq, and if you don't deal with those
issues, which during the constitution were swept under the rug, they are
going to face very serious problems and I think they should be tackled. BBC: Is it civil war? Kofi Annan: I think, given
the level of violence, the level of killing and bitterness and the way that
forces are arranged against each other. A few years ago, when we had the
strife in Lebanon and other places, we called that a civil war. This is much
worse. BBC: You must in some way
feel sadly vindicated - in 2003, in March, you said that: "A war can
lead to unintended consequences, producing new threats and new dangers." Kofi Annan: It is sad - it
is sad in the sense that it had to come to this. BBC: Was it a mistake? Some
Iraqis say that life is worse than it was under a dictator. Kofi Annan: I think they are
right in the sense of the average Iraqi's life. If I were an average Iraqi
obviously I would make the same comparison, that they had a dictator who was
brutal but they had their streets, they could go out, their kids could go to
school and come back home without a mother or father worrying, "Am I
going to see my child again?" And the Iraqi government has not been able
to bring the violence under control. The society needs security
and a secure environment for it to get on - without security not much can be
done - not recovery or reconstruction. BBC: Do you believe that the
Iraq Study Group led by James Baker and Lee Hamilton which is about to
publish its report is a recognition that the US and others have to change
course urgently? Kofi Annan: Yeah, I think
it's a recognition that things are not working the way they had hoped and
that it is essential to take a critical review - take a critical look at what
is going on and, if necessary, change course. BBC: Because there's no
denying the risks at stake here - you met Middle East leaders this summer,
they said to you that the whole region had been radicalised and destabilised.
In fact, they said it was a disaster. Kofi Annan: This is the
feeling of the leaders in the region and in the streets as well. The people are worried -
they are worried about the future, they are worried about the broader Middle
East, they are worried about the tensions with Iran, they are worried about
Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, and some would even stretch it as far as to
Afghanistan. So we have a very worrisome
situation in the broader Middle East and we also need to look at them as a
whole, not as individual conflicts. There are linkages between these crises. BBC: But when you see this
unfolding, in the dark of night, do you ever think: "I, as the secretary
general, could have done more to stop it, personally"? Kofi Annan: You mean the war
or the situation? BBC: The war. Kofi Annan: I think as
secretary general I did everything I could. I worked with the member states,
and you've read some of the comments I made before the war. BBC: But you made many
comments, for example, you waited until 2004 in a BBC interview to say the
war was "illegal". Kofi Annan: No. BBC: Why didn't you stand up
in the UN Security Council and say in 2003: "This war is illegal without
a Security Council resolution"? Kofi Annan: I think, if you
go back to the records, you will discover that before the war I said that for
the US and its allies to go to war without Security Council approval would
not be in conformity with the Charter. BBC: Which is a very sort of
UN bureaucratic thing, rather than saying "it's illegal" which
would have much more impact. And your aides say to me: "This was Kofi
Annan, the cautious man, not wanting to confront." Kofi Annan: It's easy to -
what do the Americans call it? - "Saturday morning
quarter-backing", or "armchair critic". I mean, it was one of
those situations where even before a shot had been fired, you had millions in
the street and it didn't make a difference. BBC: But for you, in that
position, a very difficult, devastating time. Your aides say that you lost
your voice. Kofi Annan: Yeah, it was
very difficult, very painful, because I really, really felt we should have
tried harder to avoid it and I was very worried about the consequences and
the results. BBC: Another big challenge
for you: the situation in Darfur. Many say that Darfur has proven that the
United Nations cannot stop genocide. Kofi Annan: Who and what is
the United Nations? The United Nations are the member states. BBC: The Security Council. Kofi Annan: Your government
and mine. BBC: It's been going on for
three years, more than 200,000 people have died, two to three million have
been displaced. Kofi Annan: I'm not
disputing the gravity of the situation. We've been pushing very hard to get
peacekeepers in. BBC: One of the big
successes of UN reform was this Responsibility to Protect. But you're not
protecting - it's been three years. I myself have made that
point, that member states made a solemn pledge to protect. Sudan has made it quite
clear to the whole world that it will not accept UN peacekeepers. The
resolution says we should deploy the troops with the cooperation and consent
of the Sudanese. If the Sudanese do not give
their consent, no government, not yours or mine, is going to give troops for
a peacekeeping operation in Darfur. BBC: So, people said after
Rwanda, after Srebrenica, "never again". But it's happening again. Kofi Annan: It is deeply,
deeply disappointing and it's tragic but we do not have the resources or the
will to confront the situation - as in, If you did it, would you maker the
situation worse, or would it be better? I mean, I have gone out and
indicated to the Sudanese that if they cannot protect their people, and they
are refusing to let the international community come in and assist, they will
be held individually and collectively responsible for what is happening and
what happens. BBC: We're told that you're
going to make this one of your priorities to the day that you leave, on 31
December. Kofi Annan: You mean Darfur?
I've told you, it's very tragic and painful, not only [to me] as secretary
general but as a human being and as an African, and I hope all of us feel
that way. I'm going to work on it - Darfur and one or two other issues which
I'm working on - up until the last day. BBC: Another policy approach
identified with you was zero tolerance when it came to sexual abuses carried
out by blue helmets - UN peacekeepers. In 2004 there was a scandal involving
peacekeepers in the Democratic Republic of Congo, and yet again, in the last
few days, there have been reports of abuse. What happened to zero tolerance? Kofi Annan : We take zero
tolerance very seriously and we have tightened up and we have groups that
work in these peacekeeping operations. Over the last 18 months to
two years we've looked at over 300 cases and disciplined well over half of
them - some have been dismissed, some have been sent home and others have
been disciplined and, in fact, on Monday we are going to have a high-level
group meeting - this had been arranged a long time ago, before this piece
came up - a high-level discussion on sexual exploitation, warning people -
and it's not just for the UN, it's for the UN, the agencies, NGOs and a whole
group of other people to share experiences and discuss this and do something
about it - even go further than we have. BBC: But your assistant
secretary general for peacekeeping operations told the BBC that: "My
operating presumption is that this is either a problem or a potential problem
in every single one of our missions." Kofi Annan: I think by that
she means that we recruit these people from the wider world - we don't have
troops, we borrow them from governments. And by that she's implying it's a
problem in society that we have to recognise and deal with, and we need to be
realistic that some of these incidents may happen and therefore set up
systems and be vigilant to make sure that it does not happen in our
operations, particularly when we are there to protect the most vulnerable. BBC: But it has happened -
again and again. Kofi Annan: I don't think
she was defending it. BBC: But it has happened
again and again, since it first broke as a scandal in 2004. So zero tolerance
doesn't seem to be having an impact. Kofi Annan: I beg to differ.
I think you have an absolute position on everything, the moment you declare
zero tolerance, everything vanishes. And as I said... BBC: But what would help [so
you can] expect it to get better? Kofi Annan: We have been
very active and we've been challenging some of these governments about their
troops, the civilians have been disciplined and some of them have been fired,
and we are going to remain vigilant. BBC: As you get ready to
leave, is there something that particularly worries you? For example, you
went to Iran recently and the Iranians made it clear to you they're not going
to back down on their nuclear programme, they're prepared for the worst. Is
that something you think could happen again, a military confrontation? Kofi Annan: I hope not. As I
indicated, I have a great concern for the whole Middle Eastern region and I
don't think the Middle East can take another crisis. It's in a very
precarious and delicate state at this moment and I have indicated quite
clearly that on the Iranian issue we need to do whatever we can to get a
negotiated solution and that, in my mind, is the only one. BBC: Do you think that there
are others, though, perhaps other countries who may be thinking about a
military solution since the diplomacy's not working? Kofi Annan: It would be
extremely unwise for that country and for the world and everything should be
done to stop it. BBC: Your biggest regret? Kofi Annan: My biggest
regret - well, it's also linked to Iraq. It was 23 wonderful colleagues and
friends I sent to Iraq who got blown away. They went to Iraq to try and help
clean up in the aftermath of a war I genuinely did not believe in, and these
people, who were wonderful professionals, wonderful friends, were blown up
overnight. And of course when that happens, you ask questions, you know:
Would they be here if there hadn't been this situation? Would they be here if
I hadn't asked them to go? BBC: Any advice for your
successor? Kofi Annan: He should do it
his way. I did it my way, my predecessors did it their way and he should do
it his way. BBC: And the Kofi Annan way
- a man who said he doesn't like confrontation, who's cautious by nature -
that was the best way, in retrospect? Kofi Annan: I said he should
do it his way. External link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/in_depth/6205056.stm |